That's not why they'll never win. They'll never win because minor/fringe/startup parties can't win in the Canadian electoral system. It's not just unlikely, it's impossible for one simple reason.
That reason being, if those ideas ever become popular enough to win an election, a major party will run on them. That's how it works. The major parties adapt to the electorate (rather than taking a position, never changing, and just hoping the electorate eventually comes to them like the Greens and the PPC do). That's why they have leadership elections and policy conventions - to stay relevant with the voters.
Seriously. Haven't you ever wondered why for the entire 150 years of this country's existence it's only ever been ruled by one of the two major parties, even though a myriad of minor parties have come and gone? That's why. Because the major parties adopt the popular positions of the day in order to stay in power. That's not going to change. The major parties aren't just going to stop trying to win elections by adapting to current trends. And the PPC are not going to be the first party in Canadian history to come from behind and upset the whole system by winning an election. To even think this is possible reveals a deep lack of understanding of how electoral politics work.
I've seen you make this point often over the last few months, and I find it compelling. I'm probably on the younger side of this board, so I'm ashamed to say my mindset was entirely different in 2015, it was my first federal election where I could vote and I voted liberal then(I also live/grew up in a very liberal riding). I voted liberal over another candidate because I believed it was a strategic vote, even though I preferred another candidate.
I've learned and changed a lot since then. I now oppose the corrupt lying liberals. I have adopted the principle that I will not support a lesser evil, I will vote with my conscious. I believed the liberals were less evil than the conservatives and I wouldn't vote third party, look how that turned out. From now on I will vote for my preferred local candidate, "strategic voting" be damned.
So I see your argument about the nature of electoral politics in Canada, but the liberals have shown me that establishment parties will only exploit this. Further, I don't think real change will come at the ballot box but at the individual level of every Canadian. This is a reason for me to support the PPC, so I can at least have conversations with people about my values and point to a party that represents them. Cynicism and complacency in politics only dissuades individuals' civic engagement. I'd rather have to something to aim for than something to be let down by.
Besides last time PPC got 3% of the vote. If they get 7%, that's EXACTLY what Ham is saying sends the message to Conservatives, even if the PPC had no seats. If they lose seats because they don't represent 20% of their potential voting base, they'll adapt or die.
I'm in my late 20s, so I'm not much ahead of you, and I only woke up to politics in 2015 anyhow.
If you want a good historical context of what the PPC is trying to do, look up the reform party 1987 and what they became.
You said what's on my mind. People saying the PPC only got 3% of votes last election are fools. It's a new party. No one expect them to win or even get 10%. But they did get nearly 400,000 votes Canada wide. It could be 800,000 next election and even if no seats are won I will be happy knowing there are 800,000 reasonable Canadians out there who think like me and who are tired of CPC.
I have adopted the principle that I will not support a lesser evil
Then you're supporting the greater of two evils by default.
When you start thinking about politics with your head instead of your heart, and you accept the truth (and it is the truth) that there's no way your minor party can win, you will realize that your only viable choices are the greater of two evils or the lesser of two evils. And that by abstaining, you're choosing the greater of two evils by default.
Have you heard of the trolley problem? It's an ethical dilemma thought experiment.
If you do nothing, the train will continue straight ahead and kill five people. But if you throw the switch, one person will be killed, and it will be through your action.
What do you do?
They're both bad outcomes, but one is worse than the other and you have to choose. By saying "I won't choose the lesser of two evils" and instead doing nothing, you will get the worst possible outcome. The same goes for Canadian elections. Doing nothing and letting the train kill five people is analogous to not voting for either major party, and thus allowing the LPC to win again (worst possible outcome).
Then you should have stayed with the CPC and voted in their leadership election.
For that matter, so should Bernier. His popularity in the party only increased after the 2017 leadership race (as people came to the realization that Scheer was a dud). If he'd stuck with the CPC, kept doing what he was doing, kept his name in the headlines for all the right reasons, he'd have been a shoo-in for the 2020 leadership race.
Instead, he committed political suicide out of anger and spite. And now you guys have no voice in parliament whatsoever, let alone any prospect of your guy ever becoming PM. I don't understand how you're not pissed off at Bernier for that. He took all your dreams and flushed them down the toilet by going off on his own.
There is no hope of reform for the CPC, with or without Bernier. The CPC leader isn't some sort of God-Emperor, whoever has that position is beholden to their globalist masters. The CPC sold out just like the Liberals did.
As such, it makes no difference which of the major parties are running Canada, they will all take marching orders from the global elites.
This is why we see so-called 'conservative' governments acting like leftists in Ontario, Alberta and Manitoba. They have all sold out for their own benefit and do not care about their constituents.
So feel free to push the CPC as the 'alternative' but in reality it will get us to the same place as voting for PM Socks and the Liberals or if you prefer a more communist branding, Singh and the NDP.
LOL of course there is. That's why real parties have leadership elections every couple of years. Just because you didn't like the outcomes of the last two leadership elections doesn't mean it's the end of the party.
You're acting like this is some sort of unprecedented territory. But it isn't. You're just the millionth naive fringe-party supporting individual to say "There's no hope for the [insert major party]. The [insert fringe party]'s day has finally come".
Except it hasn't come. It never does. These parties come and go, and their supporters make all these same noises every time, and then those parties peter out having never come anywhere close to winning an election. Rinse and repeat. Meanwhile, elections continue to be won by one of the two major parties, as has been the case in every single federal election in Canadian history. And if you think the PPC, with their low single-digit percentile support, are going to be the first party to finally break that 150 year old pattern, you're lying to yourself. That's like betting on winning the lottery. Wrose, in fact. Because at least it's actually possible to win the lottery.
We'd be fine if you we had more representation across the country. A one man army won't do much but get MPs from allover Canada and eventually the PPC will have legitimate party status. These things take time.
That's not why they'll never win. They'll never win because minor/fringe/startup parties can't win in the Canadian electoral system. It's not just unlikely, it's impossible for one simple reason.
That reason being, if those ideas ever become popular enough to win an election, a major party will run on them. That's how it works. The major parties adapt to the electorate (rather than taking a position, never changing, and just hoping the electorate eventually comes to them like the Greens and the PPC do). That's why they have leadership elections and policy conventions - to stay relevant with the voters.
Seriously. Haven't you ever wondered why for the entire 150 years of this country's existence it's only ever been ruled by one of the two major parties, even though a myriad of minor parties have come and gone? That's why. Because the major parties adopt the popular positions of the day in order to stay in power. That's not going to change. The major parties aren't just going to stop trying to win elections by adapting to current trends. And the PPC are not going to be the first party in Canadian history to come from behind and upset the whole system by winning an election. To even think this is possible reveals a deep lack of understanding of how electoral politics work.
I've seen you make this point often over the last few months, and I find it compelling. I'm probably on the younger side of this board, so I'm ashamed to say my mindset was entirely different in 2015, it was my first federal election where I could vote and I voted liberal then(I also live/grew up in a very liberal riding). I voted liberal over another candidate because I believed it was a strategic vote, even though I preferred another candidate.
I've learned and changed a lot since then. I now oppose the corrupt lying liberals. I have adopted the principle that I will not support a lesser evil, I will vote with my conscious. I believed the liberals were less evil than the conservatives and I wouldn't vote third party, look how that turned out. From now on I will vote for my preferred local candidate, "strategic voting" be damned.
So I see your argument about the nature of electoral politics in Canada, but the liberals have shown me that establishment parties will only exploit this. Further, I don't think real change will come at the ballot box but at the individual level of every Canadian. This is a reason for me to support the PPC, so I can at least have conversations with people about my values and point to a party that represents them. Cynicism and complacency in politics only dissuades individuals' civic engagement. I'd rather have to something to aim for than something to be let down by.
Besides last time PPC got 3% of the vote. If they get 7%, that's EXACTLY what Ham is saying sends the message to Conservatives, even if the PPC had no seats. If they lose seats because they don't represent 20% of their potential voting base, they'll adapt or die.
I'm in my late 20s, so I'm not much ahead of you, and I only woke up to politics in 2015 anyhow.
If you want a good historical context of what the PPC is trying to do, look up the reform party 1987 and what they became.
You said what's on my mind. People saying the PPC only got 3% of votes last election are fools. It's a new party. No one expect them to win or even get 10%. But they did get nearly 400,000 votes Canada wide. It could be 800,000 next election and even if no seats are won I will be happy knowing there are 800,000 reasonable Canadians out there who think like me and who are tired of CPC.
Then you're supporting the greater of two evils by default.
When you start thinking about politics with your head instead of your heart, and you accept the truth (and it is the truth) that there's no way your minor party can win, you will realize that your only viable choices are the greater of two evils or the lesser of two evils. And that by abstaining, you're choosing the greater of two evils by default.
Have you heard of the trolley problem? It's an ethical dilemma thought experiment.
Suppose you're standing next to a train track switch and there's a train barreling down the tracks. There's five people on the tracks straight ahead of the train, but only one person on the tracks that branch off.
If you do nothing, the train will continue straight ahead and kill five people. But if you throw the switch, one person will be killed, and it will be through your action.
What do you do?
They're both bad outcomes, but one is worse than the other and you have to choose. By saying "I won't choose the lesser of two evils" and instead doing nothing, you will get the worst possible outcome. The same goes for Canadian elections. Doing nothing and letting the train kill five people is analogous to not voting for either major party, and thus allowing the LPC to win again (worst possible outcome).
And then you the worst of two evils, because you put emotions ahead of outcomes.
Then people will do something about all those victims who end up tied to railroad tracks.
Then you should have stayed with the CPC and voted in their leadership election.
For that matter, so should Bernier. His popularity in the party only increased after the 2017 leadership race (as people came to the realization that Scheer was a dud). If he'd stuck with the CPC, kept doing what he was doing, kept his name in the headlines for all the right reasons, he'd have been a shoo-in for the 2020 leadership race.
Instead, he committed political suicide out of anger and spite. And now you guys have no voice in parliament whatsoever, let alone any prospect of your guy ever becoming PM. I don't understand how you're not pissed off at Bernier for that. He took all your dreams and flushed them down the toilet by going off on his own.
You encouraged the community to become PPC founding members.
There is no hope of reform for the CPC, with or without Bernier. The CPC leader isn't some sort of God-Emperor, whoever has that position is beholden to their globalist masters. The CPC sold out just like the Liberals did.
As such, it makes no difference which of the major parties are running Canada, they will all take marching orders from the global elites.
This is why we see so-called 'conservative' governments acting like leftists in Ontario, Alberta and Manitoba. They have all sold out for their own benefit and do not care about their constituents.
So feel free to push the CPC as the 'alternative' but in reality it will get us to the same place as voting for PM Socks and the Liberals or if you prefer a more communist branding, Singh and the NDP.
LOL of course there is. That's why real parties have leadership elections every couple of years. Just because you didn't like the outcomes of the last two leadership elections doesn't mean it's the end of the party.
You're acting like this is some sort of unprecedented territory. But it isn't. You're just the millionth naive fringe-party supporting individual to say "There's no hope for the [insert major party]. The [insert fringe party]'s day has finally come".
Except it hasn't come. It never does. These parties come and go, and their supporters make all these same noises every time, and then those parties peter out having never come anywhere close to winning an election. Rinse and repeat. Meanwhile, elections continue to be won by one of the two major parties, as has been the case in every single federal election in Canadian history. And if you think the PPC, with their low single-digit percentile support, are going to be the first party to finally break that 150 year old pattern, you're lying to yourself. That's like betting on winning the lottery. Wrose, in fact. Because at least it's actually possible to win the lottery.
We'd be fine if you we had more representation across the country. A one man army won't do much but get MPs from allover Canada and eventually the PPC will have legitimate party status. These things take time.
Hew came within a cunt hair of beating Scheer and Max's popularity only increased after that.
You're telling yourself he never could have won because you have to believe that in order to not hate him for fucking it all up.
Forgot about those guys.
Also enough with the LGBT pandering too.
Not the brightest tool in the shed either.
You crying about it isn't going to make it any less true.
Keep crying. It's still true.