I've been seeing people claim that people that don't want to mix their Pfizer or Moderna doses with the opposite for their 2nd jab are entitled, selfish assholes who they hope catch covid.
We're the only country that I know of that is treating our citizens as guinea pigs to this extent as far as I know. The CDC recommends against it. Some countries aren't counting a mixed dose (not AZ mixes, apparently those have been tested) for vaccine passport purposes.
Idk. Personally I don't think it's selfish at all to want to wait a little longer (at this point it's not long before it becomes super easy to get either one) to ensure your health doesn't suffer for it. The rates are already so low (in my area, anyway), and I feel like most essential workers that were planning on getting a vaccine at all have already gotten both. Anyone WFH isn't very likely to spread it imo.
It's just frustrating how people will tell you to drink the koolaid, eat the bugs, step in line or you're an awful person who deserves to suffer for it.
Idk if I can link here but go to the Ottawa subreddit and look at all the threads with multiple hundreds of comments hating on people that just want to ensure their health isn't damaged by an untested mixed vaccine. Where is the empathy?
I like the example I heard the other day. Peanuts are safe, but if you shoved a handful of peanuts into everyone's mouth, some people would die.
It's the recklessness of all this that worries me. The Vaxx absolutely HAS killed and injured people, but we ate told not to worry about those casualties??
After observing the nonsensical and off-point comments and replies of tuchodi over several threads, I've decided that 'it' is a professional obfuscator and intelligence gatherer. The loquatious replies just seem intended to kick the conversational can and stir up people to reveal their hot views. That someone can be so obtuse in the face of mountains of reality-based evidence is, well, pretty normal for a leftist these days. chutodi, your next verbal volley?
People who say "You should get vaccinated because you're jeopardizing me if you don't!" can go fuck themselves. GOOD. The fewer people like you there are on this earth, the better.
That being said, it is a simple epidemiological fact that the more people get vaccinated, the closer you get to halting the virus, even if the vaccine is only 90% effective. It's just basic math. The more people get vaccinated, the fewer vectors there are for the virus to propagate until eventually it gets cornered and dies off. And the longer it's allowed to keep propagating, the more time/reproductive cycles it has to mutate, possibly to something that's resistant to that vaccine. So the sooner it's halted, the better.
Where the vaccine zealots lose people is when they make it about themselves personally. If you're vaccinated personally you're probably (90%) fine even if you do come into contact with someone who's infected. The real issue is the epidemic as a whole, not any one individual. But of course people have to make everything about themselves so here we are.
A global pandemic from a newly crossed-over virus is like a partially completed jigsaw puzzle. There are so many unknowns, so many factors still to be understood. Never mind the factors we don't even know about yet. It's a deep, deep rabbit hole.
It can help to step back and look at the big picture: In Canada the number of serious "adverse events" from getting the vaccine stands at 0.005%, or 1 in 20,000. Compare that to the overall chance of dying from getting the virus: 1 in 50.
In the public health unit where I live, which is a heavy retirement area, there have been 1847 cases and 6 deaths since march 2020. This is a 0.3% chance of death, if you catch the virus. Among an elderly/retirement community. Among heathy young people, the chance of death is way lower.
At least 30% of the general population, maybe way more, have an innate immunity from previous coronaviruses and won't even catch it.
That's your experience. I have been in two cities in the last six months that have been shipping covid victims out because their hospitals are full. And I know people who have had their "normal" surgical procedures cancelled, bumped by an outbreak at the hospital or the number of covid victims already taking up beds.
Read the "Closed Cases" box in the link below. And note the "Daily New Cases" graph. There's another wave starting:
That's when I started switching from "meh I'll get it when it's necessary" to "I'll stand for my freedom and refuse it through this cohercition". My province has a passport designed to force reluctant young men into getting the vaccine and claim it's not oppressing our rights and freedom like other countries have. They claim that if we want to get access to bars and gym, all we have to do is get vaccinated. Yeah, not oppressive of my freedoms at all; all you have to do to keep on living your life like other citizens is eat a handful of nails.
Some people have a hard time recognizing that their health system was designed for regular health care. There are only so many ICU beds available and once they're full the next person who needs one - because of covid, a heart attack, a car accident, whatever - is probably going to die.
And then of course there are the people who need regular hospital care - heart stuff, cancer stuff, all the way down to varicose veins - and aren't getting it because their hospital is plugged with covid patients.
The point being that the vaccines have a good track record of keeping covid victims out of the hospital, so maybe regular health care can get some attention too.
Are they 100% perfect, guaranteed to grant everyone perfect immunity? Of course not. Are the odds of staying healthy better? Yes, so far.
Are they guaranteed to never cause anyone any trouble? Nope. Welcome to a global pandemic folks. People who like life to be black and white are gonna have a hard time.
When the virus gets ahead of the containment measures the morgues overflow and the bodies are stacked in rented reefer trailers. Those bodies are parents, grandparents, and all ages with health issues.
You are perfectly within your rights to be OK with this.
Viruses are simple things and they mutate easily. There have been dozens of these covid variants since covid first appeared. but most are not a great threat. They mutate better in unvaccinated people. The more unvaccinated people there are the greater the chance they will produce a truly terrible variant.
Already we've seen that the alpha and delta variants are more transmissible than the original virus but the current vaccines are pretty effective against them. The newest variant to be concerned about is the lambda. They are still working out exactly how transmissible and how deadly it is, and how effective the current vaccines are against it.
You are perfectly free to ignore this too. You don't have to listen to anyone you don't want to. You can believe all those experts are lying to you.
In Canada there was some limited use of additional refrigeration space, but this wasn't I believe due to excess mortality from covid, rather delaying how bodies are handled due to covid restrictions.
As for the USA, well it's interesting how the media hyped "overflowing" morgues and blamed it all on Trump, yet here's an interesting article published by the NYT just before the "pandemic" began:
Many countries haven't seen significantly higher mortality rates, some countries like Sweden which had fewer restrictions fared better than those that imposed harsher restrictions.
In Canada there was some limited use of additional refrigeration space
Yes, Canada, where public health measures were implemented earlier than some other places in the world.
article published by the NYT
I don't have a New York Times account, so I can't read the article. Can you cut and paste the parts where it talks about storing bodies in refrigerated trailers?
Meanwhile, here's a twitter post from the NYT illustrating the increase in deaths when the virus gets ahead of the public health measures. Note the spike in deaths a couple of months after the article you referenced.
(https://twitter.com/i/events/1255503813345267714?lang=en)
I accept that the hit to the economy has been brutal, and I wish it was as easy to illustrate as the medical outcomes. It's a global pandemic. Everybody hurts.
I don't subscribe to the NYT. All you need to know is the title. This issue with "overflowing" morgues was a problem before covid, not because of it.
Not "fatality rate from covid" -- the country's mortality rate. Deaths from all causes. While Sweden may have had more people "with covid" die, overall the country's mortality rate was about the same as previous years, and better than countries with harsher lockdown measures. It may seem insensitive, but the fact of the matter is many people who died of covid would have died soon anyway. Do you know how many people die in LTCs every year? Average residency is 1.5 years I believe.
For anyone else following this discussion: Basing your argument on just the title of an article - not its content - is pretty shallow research. It's only one small step above just making stuff up.
The take-away is that the virus has the potential to overwhelm the healthcare system, which s set up for "normal" times. People who would normally be treated for regular emergencies can't get in.
Not "fatality rate from covid"
Except that it IS the fatality rate from covid. Anyone who wants to can follow the link and see the numbers.
You seem to have a significant comprehension problem.
The article discusses pre-pandemic "overflowing" morgues, if you want to subscribe and see for yourself what it has to say, please feel free to do so. It's not a new problem, esp. in the USA.
Mortality rate is the total deaths from all causes, not just covid. Despite having higher deaths attributed to covid than some other countries, in the end this had less of an influence on Sweden's mortality rate. Sweden's excess deaths was something like 7.7% which is somewhat less than what other countries, like Belgium, experienced.
If this still doesn't make sense, don't bother responding.
I know. You look up in the sky and you see right away that both the sun and the moon go around the earth. It's as plain as the nose on your face. You don't need no fuckin' scientist to tell you that's not how it works. You're not that dumb.
If you, like GunsnCrutches, didn't have time to read the article here are some high points:
Three doctors, a hospital communications official, and Alberta Health Services all spoke about the fact that some hospitals in Alberta were swamped.
Dr. Daisy Fung, Dr. Ilan Schwartz, Dr. Miriam Berchuk,
Kerry Williamson, Alberta Health Services
Here are a couple of quotes.
"As of Sunday, another seven COVID-19 patients were admitted to Alberta ICUs, bringing the total to 95, well above the government’s benchmark of 70 ICU beds"
"From March and June, surgeries fell 47 per cent compared to 2019, meaning a total of 335,000 procedures never took place. Life-saving and urgent surgeries (pacemaker insertions, cancer surgeries, fractures, heart bypasses) dropped 17 and 21 per cent, respectively"
I don't think there's much point in listening to anything GunsnCrutches has to say unless they get out of their own head and join us here in the real world.
That hits home. I have had this exact discussion a couple times with family members.
Holes like my arteries, filled with spike proteins?
Also will I get to partake in big orgies if I join this cult?
I've been seeing people claim that people that don't want to mix their Pfizer or Moderna doses with the opposite for their 2nd jab are entitled, selfish assholes who they hope catch covid.
We're the only country that I know of that is treating our citizens as guinea pigs to this extent as far as I know. The CDC recommends against it. Some countries aren't counting a mixed dose (not AZ mixes, apparently those have been tested) for vaccine passport purposes.
Idk. Personally I don't think it's selfish at all to want to wait a little longer (at this point it's not long before it becomes super easy to get either one) to ensure your health doesn't suffer for it. The rates are already so low (in my area, anyway), and I feel like most essential workers that were planning on getting a vaccine at all have already gotten both. Anyone WFH isn't very likely to spread it imo.
It's just frustrating how people will tell you to drink the koolaid, eat the bugs, step in line or you're an awful person who deserves to suffer for it.
Idk if I can link here but go to the Ottawa subreddit and look at all the threads with multiple hundreds of comments hating on people that just want to ensure their health isn't damaged by an untested mixed vaccine. Where is the empathy?
Ooh, that's good info, thanks for correcting me on that, I hadn't heard.
I know all those reddit commenters would insist this is an exceptional circumstance but I'm not sure I agree lol.
I like the example I heard the other day. Peanuts are safe, but if you shoved a handful of peanuts into everyone's mouth, some people would die.
It's the recklessness of all this that worries me. The Vaxx absolutely HAS killed and injured people, but we ate told not to worry about those casualties??
After observing the nonsensical and off-point comments and replies of tuchodi over several threads, I've decided that 'it' is a professional obfuscator and intelligence gatherer. The loquatious replies just seem intended to kick the conversational can and stir up people to reveal their hot views. That someone can be so obtuse in the face of mountains of reality-based evidence is, well, pretty normal for a leftist these days. chutodi, your next verbal volley?
People who say "You should get vaccinated because you're jeopardizing me if you don't!" can go fuck themselves. GOOD. The fewer people like you there are on this earth, the better.
That being said, it is a simple epidemiological fact that the more people get vaccinated, the closer you get to halting the virus, even if the vaccine is only 90% effective. It's just basic math. The more people get vaccinated, the fewer vectors there are for the virus to propagate until eventually it gets cornered and dies off. And the longer it's allowed to keep propagating, the more time/reproductive cycles it has to mutate, possibly to something that's resistant to that vaccine. So the sooner it's halted, the better.
Where the vaccine zealots lose people is when they make it about themselves personally. If you're vaccinated personally you're probably (90%) fine even if you do come into contact with someone who's infected. The real issue is the epidemic as a whole, not any one individual. But of course people have to make everything about themselves so here we are.
A global pandemic from a newly crossed-over virus is like a partially completed jigsaw puzzle. There are so many unknowns, so many factors still to be understood. Never mind the factors we don't even know about yet. It's a deep, deep rabbit hole.
It can help to step back and look at the big picture: In Canada the number of serious "adverse events" from getting the vaccine stands at 0.005%, or 1 in 20,000. Compare that to the overall chance of dying from getting the virus: 1 in 50.
https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/vaccine-safety/
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ (see the 'Closed Cases' box)
Chance of dying from the virus is not 2%.
In the public health unit where I live, which is a heavy retirement area, there have been 1847 cases and 6 deaths since march 2020. This is a 0.3% chance of death, if you catch the virus. Among an elderly/retirement community. Among heathy young people, the chance of death is way lower.
At least 30% of the general population, maybe way more, have an innate immunity from previous coronaviruses and won't even catch it.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Cases which had an outcome: 175,815,603
Recovered / Discharged: 171,763,077 (98%)
Deaths: 4,052,526 (2%)
That's your experience. I have been in two cities in the last six months that have been shipping covid victims out because their hospitals are full. And I know people who have had their "normal" surgical procedures cancelled, bumped by an outbreak at the hospital or the number of covid victims already taking up beds.
Read the "Closed Cases" box in the link below. And note the "Daily New Cases" graph. There's another wave starting:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Don't be too sure of that. They've already had some cases of people getting infected by covid a second time.
That's when I started switching from "meh I'll get it when it's necessary" to "I'll stand for my freedom and refuse it through this cohercition". My province has a passport designed to force reluctant young men into getting the vaccine and claim it's not oppressing our rights and freedom like other countries have. They claim that if we want to get access to bars and gym, all we have to do is get vaccinated. Yeah, not oppressive of my freedoms at all; all you have to do to keep on living your life like other citizens is eat a handful of nails.
Some people have a hard time recognizing that their health system was designed for regular health care. There are only so many ICU beds available and once they're full the next person who needs one - because of covid, a heart attack, a car accident, whatever - is probably going to die.
And then of course there are the people who need regular hospital care - heart stuff, cancer stuff, all the way down to varicose veins - and aren't getting it because their hospital is plugged with covid patients.
The point being that the vaccines have a good track record of keeping covid victims out of the hospital, so maybe regular health care can get some attention too.
Are they 100% perfect, guaranteed to grant everyone perfect immunity? Of course not. Are the odds of staying healthy better? Yes, so far.
Are they guaranteed to never cause anyone any trouble? Nope. Welcome to a global pandemic folks. People who like life to be black and white are gonna have a hard time.
Giving a vaccine to everyone for something that represents 4% of all deaths is laughable.
When the virus gets ahead of the containment measures the morgues overflow and the bodies are stacked in rented reefer trailers. Those bodies are parents, grandparents, and all ages with health issues.
You are perfectly within your rights to be OK with this.
Viruses are simple things and they mutate easily. There have been dozens of these covid variants since covid first appeared. but most are not a great threat. They mutate better in unvaccinated people. The more unvaccinated people there are the greater the chance they will produce a truly terrible variant.
Already we've seen that the alpha and delta variants are more transmissible than the original virus but the current vaccines are pretty effective against them. The newest variant to be concerned about is the lambda. They are still working out exactly how transmissible and how deadly it is, and how effective the current vaccines are against it.
You are perfectly free to ignore this too. You don't have to listen to anyone you don't want to. You can believe all those experts are lying to you.
In Canada there was some limited use of additional refrigeration space, but this wasn't I believe due to excess mortality from covid, rather delaying how bodies are handled due to covid restrictions.
As for the USA, well it's interesting how the media hyped "overflowing" morgues and blamed it all on Trump, yet here's an interesting article published by the NYT just before the "pandemic" began:
"Piled Bodies, Overflowing Morgues: Inside America’s Autopsy Crisis" https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/25/magazine/piled-bodies-overflowing-morgues-inside-americas-autopsy-crisis.html
Many countries haven't seen significantly higher mortality rates, some countries like Sweden which had fewer restrictions fared better than those that imposed harsher restrictions.
Yes, Canada, where public health measures were implemented earlier than some other places in the world.
I don't have a New York Times account, so I can't read the article. Can you cut and paste the parts where it talks about storing bodies in refrigerated trailers?
Meanwhile, here's a twitter post from the NYT illustrating the increase in deaths when the virus gets ahead of the public health measures. Note the spike in deaths a couple of months after the article you referenced. (https://twitter.com/i/events/1255503813345267714?lang=en)
Where the fatality rate from covid is more than twice as high as Canada's. Canada's fatality rate is 37% of the States', and Sweden's is 77%. (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries)
I accept that the hit to the economy has been brutal, and I wish it was as easy to illustrate as the medical outcomes. It's a global pandemic. Everybody hurts.
I don't subscribe to the NYT. All you need to know is the title. This issue with "overflowing" morgues was a problem before covid, not because of it.
Not "fatality rate from covid" -- the country's mortality rate. Deaths from all causes. While Sweden may have had more people "with covid" die, overall the country's mortality rate was about the same as previous years, and better than countries with harsher lockdown measures. It may seem insensitive, but the fact of the matter is many people who died of covid would have died soon anyway. Do you know how many people die in LTCs every year? Average residency is 1.5 years I believe.
Sure.
For anyone else following this discussion: Basing your argument on just the title of an article - not its content - is pretty shallow research. It's only one small step above just making stuff up.
https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-federal-memo-reveals-trucks-used-for-dead-2020-5
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fema-is-sending-85-refrigerated-trucks-to-new-york-city-to-serve-as-temporary-morgues-2020-04-01
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/05/15/coronavirus-temporary-morgues-trucks-can-haul-food-again-fda-says/5202538002/
The take-away is that the virus has the potential to overwhelm the healthcare system, which s set up for "normal" times. People who would normally be treated for regular emergencies can't get in.
Except that it IS the fatality rate from covid. Anyone who wants to can follow the link and see the numbers.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
You seem to have a significant comprehension problem.
The article discusses pre-pandemic "overflowing" morgues, if you want to subscribe and see for yourself what it has to say, please feel free to do so. It's not a new problem, esp. in the USA.
Mortality rate is the total deaths from all causes, not just covid. Despite having higher deaths attributed to covid than some other countries, in the end this had less of an influence on Sweden's mortality rate. Sweden's excess deaths was something like 7.7% which is somewhat less than what other countries, like Belgium, experienced.
If this still doesn't make sense, don't bother responding.
I know. You look up in the sky and you see right away that both the sun and the moon go around the earth. It's as plain as the nose on your face. You don't need no fuckin' scientist to tell you that's not how it works. You're not that dumb.
https://www.macleans.ca/society/health/icus-in-alberta-are-drowning-say-doctors-ive-never-had-this-happen-in-all-my-years-of-practice/
Dear Reader
If you, like GunsnCrutches, didn't have time to read the article here are some high points:
Three doctors, a hospital communications official, and Alberta Health Services all spoke about the fact that some hospitals in Alberta were swamped.
Dr. Daisy Fung, Dr. Ilan Schwartz, Dr. Miriam Berchuk, Kerry Williamson, Alberta Health Services
Here are a couple of quotes.
"As of Sunday, another seven COVID-19 patients were admitted to Alberta ICUs, bringing the total to 95, well above the government’s benchmark of 70 ICU beds"
"From March and June, surgeries fell 47 per cent compared to 2019, meaning a total of 335,000 procedures never took place. Life-saving and urgent surgeries (pacemaker insertions, cancer surgeries, fractures, heart bypasses) dropped 17 and 21 per cent, respectively"
I don't think there's much point in listening to anything GunsnCrutches has to say unless they get out of their own head and join us here in the real world.
Dream on. I've been in two cities where covid victims are shipped out of town because there's no room for them in the local hospitals.
It's the voices in your head that are lying to you, not me.
https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/london-hospitals-covid-19-inpatient-count-hits-record-high
https://www.forbes.com/sites/howardgleckman/2020/03/31/states-are-beginning-to-move-covid-19-patients-from-hospitals-to-nursing-facilities/?sh=2dc6b6b54401
https://www.toronto.com/news-story/10375406--these-patients-are-super-sick-hundreds-of-covid-19-patients-transferred-to-other-hospitals-to-free-up-space-in-overburdened-icus/
https://globalnews.ca/news/7876938/manitoba-transfers-2-covid-19-icu-patients-to-ontario-due-to-extreme-strain-on-resources/
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/the-system-is-teetering-critically-ill-covid-patients-moved-out-of-toronto-hospitals-to-open-up-beds
https://theconversation.com/why-ontario-had-to-transfer-thousands-of-toronto-covid-19-patients-to-other-cities-hospitals-160109
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-to-move-patients-from-hospitals-to-long-term-care-without-their-consent-due-to-covid-19-third-wave-1.5405366
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hospitals-patient-transfers-unprecedented-number-covid-19-pandemic-1.5995499