Now maybe "cases" of the unjabbed are, maybe they arent clogging up hospitals, we would have to look at the total number of beds occupied, the ages in average of the patients etc.
I would have thought that the over-representation of unvaccinated people in hospitals and ICUs settled that question.
Any of those beds taken up by a willingly unvaccinated person is a strain the healthcare system can do without.
Has that page been updated? Am not sure if I'm looking at the same page you found?
Under- "Hospitalizations by vaccination status", theres a pinkish brown chart. Both seem to be "cases", meaning I assume people who tested + on the way in, no matter what they came in with.
Assuming this means spread over all the hospitals in Ontario. Can't see anything giving an age or comorbidity breakdown.
I see a pie chart, "in hosp but not the ICU". Jabbed- 1478 people. Unjabbed - 457. So a smidge over 75% 3/4 are jabbed, Slightly less than 25% 1/4 are unjabbed.
Pie chart below, in the ICU. a yellowish brown pie chart. Jabbed, 155. Unjabbed 123. Over 9/16ths or 56.25% are jabbed.
Total over 2 charts in hosp, 580 non jab, 1633 jabbed.
Ontario has about 48,700 hospital beds. With an increase in the last 2 years.
Unless im reading the charts wrong, then thats 1.19% of the bed capcity in hospital are non jabbed people testing positive, and 3.35% of the bed capacity are jabbed. 4.5% capacity of beds in hospital are testing positive, irrespective of jab.
That doesnt sound right. Unless, all the other capacity taken up is just patients who have not tested positive for whatever reason. Also, maybe the beds arent even being taken up. Some ER intake is non critical walking wounded or what have you that are in and out in hours or can sit down.
We also don't know if everyone consented to a rona test, or declined giving jab status.
The jabbed are taking more room up than the unjabbed. Even if it was the other way around, this Ont page still doesnt tell us what are they in hospital for? Are in they admitted because they have corona, (Becuase it says "Cases" meaning, I assume they tested "positive") and are ill from complications from COVID or by itself, or are they admitted for something else, and their jab status and positivity status is just a statistical entry on intake paperwork? It doesn't say.
It doesn't say ages or comorbidities either. I would imagine that kind of granularity is difficult to keep track of in near real time, and possibly has some privacy identifying implications.
Perhaps identifying data follows along in a lag, as the record keepers get the paperwork in arrears, I have no idea.
Say they test everyone as they enter. It isnt telling us here who is in hospital who is not tested positive.
I mean, I was in hospital a month or so ago with a back injury, so I was technically 'in hospital' and under the non jabbed column, and tested positive because ive already had corona natually.
Ontario health really needs to provide us more detail. If they produced a chart that had # of people in hosp jabbed vs unjabbed, all positive on the way in, and they all had 1 kidney (a comorbidity) - are they in hospital because they are sick with covid, or are in they in hospital for a routine renal procedure or blood filtering? Maybe a bit of both?
Moving down to the numbers per beds used per avail ICU. Largely constant for the last 90 days, with a slight rise from 185 xmas eve ish to 429 people jan ish.
This chart doesn't tell us, of those in ICU for rona reasons, if they are jab/no jab, nor does it tell us are they in ICU, just because of rona, or they were negative, in ICU for something else and caight rona, or maybe were positive, were in ICU for something else and then developed rona symptoms. No detail on ages or comorbidities, or a break down on what previously was wrong with them - if any.
So, ICU bed numbers largely the same for 90 days, a slight rise in rona at the end, total Ont beds avail, 2343, patients in ICU with non rona 1336, patients in ICU either with, got later, or whatever combination of rona, 429.
The latter category occupying 18.3% of ICU beds, non rona 57%, 75% of capacity. Flipping the chart to all time, extra ICU beds were laid on to 2554 around 7th may 21, and subsequently reduced once demand fell off a cliff. Peak use being 835 rona related vs 1331 non rona related.
The chart doesnt indicate jab vs non jab.
At worst, the reserve of ICU is 340 beds all time, and in last 90 days, at worst is 540.
The non rona ICU are taking up more space than the rona related patients. We also dont know from this page if they got jabbed or not, or wether they got the rona anyway despite having 1, 2, 3 or even 4 shots thats rolling out now. ( https://globalnews.ca/news/8499223/fourth-covid-vaccine-dose-explainer/ )
Daily, Tuesday to Saturday, it says. And the date is displayed quite prominently near the top of the page. https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data
"Am not sure ... I assume ... maybe ... we also don't know ... what are they in hospital for ... I assume ... It doesn't say ... It doesn't say ... I would imagine ... possibly ... Perhaps ... I have no idea ... It isn't telling us ... more detail ... are they ... ? are they ... ? Maybe ... ? ... chart doesn't tell us ... nor does it tell us ... or ... or ... No detail ... or ... does not indicate ... We also don't know ...or ... or whether..."
Whew! Sorry you were having such a hard time with the information on that page.
It tells you that as of 10-Jan-2022 your chances of being hospitalized with covid are reduced by 77.4% if you have two doses of a vaccine, and with two doses your chances of winding up in the ICU are reduced by 90%.
This means that the more people who are vaccinated the fewer will wind up in the hospital or ICU, and that will reduce the strain on the healthcare system. Then maybe they can resume doing non-emergency surgeries again.
Not having a hard time with the info at all. The only hard time was with the fact that there wasnt much information at all - hence me observing-
the flaws or holes in the data. The pie charts on that page are woefully vague, and raise many questions as to the specificity of the data.
You attack the fact that I was disclaiming I didn't know about missing data points: Eg.
"Can't see anything giving an age or comorbidity breakdown."
But yet I posit If I had said:
"Can't see anything giving an age or comorbidity breakdown, but I bet most of them are old and or fat" - you would attack that as "knowing", or being an "expert", or wanting "a link for that".
But shall we go over the numbers again, as that's the only part that matters.
in hosp but not the ICU. Jabbed- 1478 people. Unjabbed - 457. So a smidge over 75% 3/4 are jabbed, Slightly less than 25% 1/4 are unjabbed.
in the ICU.. Jabbed, 155. Unjabbed 123. Over 9/16ths or 56.25% are jabbed.
Total over 2 charts in hosp, 580 non jab, 1633 jabbed.
More people are in hospital that are vaxxed than un vaxxed. Who can tell us why that is? AGAIN, just because someone is in hospital, and they happen to be "positive" vaxed or not, doesnt follow that they are in there because of COVID. They may have a broken leg. Thats what I was driving at. Those charts are practically useless.
As far as the point quote:
"chances of being hospitalized with covid are reduced by 77.4% if you have 2 doses of a vaccine, and with 2 doses your chances of winding up in the ICU are reduced by 90%."
Okay, so then why is there more vaxxed in the hospitals overall (and ICU) than unvaxxed? 580 non, 1633 vaxxed.
The good news about this where you said:
"This means that the more people who are vaccinated the fewer will wind up in the hospital or ICU, and that will reduce the strain on the healthcare system. Then maybe they can resume doing non-emergency surgeries again."
...That there is no "strain" on Ont Health care over corona. Ontario has 48,700 beds. 1.19% of the bed capcity in hospital are non jabbed, and 3.35% of the bed capacity are jabbed. 4.5% capacity of beds in hospital are testing positive, irrespective of jab.
Leaving about 46,000 beds left. If that isn't plenty then I don't know what is. Routine surgeries could start now. If they aren't, then that's on them, not us.
I would have thought that the over-representation of unvaccinated people in hospitals and ICUs settled that question.
Any of those beds taken up by a willingly unvaccinated person is a strain the healthcare system can do without.
What's your argument that "maybe they arent", given that they are most obviously there? https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data
Has that page been updated? Am not sure if I'm looking at the same page you found?
Under- "Hospitalizations by vaccination status", theres a pinkish brown chart. Both seem to be "cases", meaning I assume people who tested + on the way in, no matter what they came in with.
Assuming this means spread over all the hospitals in Ontario. Can't see anything giving an age or comorbidity breakdown.
I see a pie chart, "in hosp but not the ICU". Jabbed- 1478 people. Unjabbed - 457. So a smidge over 75% 3/4 are jabbed, Slightly less than 25% 1/4 are unjabbed.
Pie chart below, in the ICU. a yellowish brown pie chart. Jabbed, 155. Unjabbed 123. Over 9/16ths or 56.25% are jabbed.
Total over 2 charts in hosp, 580 non jab, 1633 jabbed.
Ontario has about 48,700 hospital beds. With an increase in the last 2 years. Unless im reading the charts wrong, then thats 1.19% of the bed capcity in hospital are non jabbed people testing positive, and 3.35% of the bed capacity are jabbed. 4.5% capacity of beds in hospital are testing positive, irrespective of jab.
That doesnt sound right. Unless, all the other capacity taken up is just patients who have not tested positive for whatever reason. Also, maybe the beds arent even being taken up. Some ER intake is non critical walking wounded or what have you that are in and out in hours or can sit down.
We also don't know if everyone consented to a rona test, or declined giving jab status.
(bed number from here https://www.fao-on.org/en/Blog/Publications/health-2020 )
The jabbed are taking more room up than the unjabbed. Even if it was the other way around, this Ont page still doesnt tell us what are they in hospital for? Are in they admitted because they have corona, (Becuase it says "Cases" meaning, I assume they tested "positive") and are ill from complications from COVID or by itself, or are they admitted for something else, and their jab status and positivity status is just a statistical entry on intake paperwork? It doesn't say.
It doesn't say ages or comorbidities either. I would imagine that kind of granularity is difficult to keep track of in near real time, and possibly has some privacy identifying implications.
Perhaps identifying data follows along in a lag, as the record keepers get the paperwork in arrears, I have no idea.
Say they test everyone as they enter. It isnt telling us here who is in hospital who is not tested positive.
I mean, I was in hospital a month or so ago with a back injury, so I was technically 'in hospital' and under the non jabbed column, and tested positive because ive already had corona natually.
Ontario health really needs to provide us more detail. If they produced a chart that had # of people in hosp jabbed vs unjabbed, all positive on the way in, and they all had 1 kidney (a comorbidity) - are they in hospital because they are sick with covid, or are in they in hospital for a routine renal procedure or blood filtering? Maybe a bit of both?
Moving down to the numbers per beds used per avail ICU. Largely constant for the last 90 days, with a slight rise from 185 xmas eve ish to 429 people jan ish.
This chart doesn't tell us, of those in ICU for rona reasons, if they are jab/no jab, nor does it tell us are they in ICU, just because of rona, or they were negative, in ICU for something else and caight rona, or maybe were positive, were in ICU for something else and then developed rona symptoms. No detail on ages or comorbidities, or a break down on what previously was wrong with them - if any.
So, ICU bed numbers largely the same for 90 days, a slight rise in rona at the end, total Ont beds avail, 2343, patients in ICU with non rona 1336, patients in ICU either with, got later, or whatever combination of rona, 429.
The latter category occupying 18.3% of ICU beds, non rona 57%, 75% of capacity. Flipping the chart to all time, extra ICU beds were laid on to 2554 around 7th may 21, and subsequently reduced once demand fell off a cliff. Peak use being 835 rona related vs 1331 non rona related.
The chart doesnt indicate jab vs non jab.
At worst, the reserve of ICU is 340 beds all time, and in last 90 days, at worst is 540.
The non rona ICU are taking up more space than the rona related patients. We also dont know from this page if they got jabbed or not, or wether they got the rona anyway despite having 1, 2, 3 or even 4 shots thats rolling out now. ( https://globalnews.ca/news/8499223/fourth-covid-vaccine-dose-explainer/ )
Daily, Tuesday to Saturday, it says. And the date is displayed quite prominently near the top of the page. https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data
"Am not sure ... I assume ... maybe ... we also don't know ... what are they in hospital for ... I assume ... It doesn't say ... It doesn't say ... I would imagine ... possibly ... Perhaps ... I have no idea ... It isn't telling us ... more detail ... are they ... ? are they ... ? Maybe ... ? ... chart doesn't tell us ... nor does it tell us ... or ... or ... No detail ... or ... does not indicate ... We also don't know ...or ... or whether..."
Whew! Sorry you were having such a hard time with the information on that page.
Perhaps this page will help: https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/ontario-dashboard/
It tells you that as of 10-Jan-2022 your chances of being hospitalized with covid are reduced by 77.4% if you have two doses of a vaccine, and with two doses your chances of winding up in the ICU are reduced by 90%.
This means that the more people who are vaccinated the fewer will wind up in the hospital or ICU, and that will reduce the strain on the healthcare system. Then maybe they can resume doing non-emergency surgeries again.
Not having a hard time with the info at all. The only hard time was with the fact that there wasnt much information at all - hence me observing-
the flaws or holes in the data. The pie charts on that page are woefully vague, and raise many questions as to the specificity of the data.
You attack the fact that I was disclaiming I didn't know about missing data points: Eg. "Can't see anything giving an age or comorbidity breakdown."
But yet I posit If I had said: "Can't see anything giving an age or comorbidity breakdown, but I bet most of them are old and or fat" - you would attack that as "knowing", or being an "expert", or wanting "a link for that".
But shall we go over the numbers again, as that's the only part that matters.
in hosp but not the ICU. Jabbed- 1478 people. Unjabbed - 457. So a smidge over 75% 3/4 are jabbed, Slightly less than 25% 1/4 are unjabbed.
in the ICU.. Jabbed, 155. Unjabbed 123. Over 9/16ths or 56.25% are jabbed.
Total over 2 charts in hosp, 580 non jab, 1633 jabbed.
More people are in hospital that are vaxxed than un vaxxed. Who can tell us why that is? AGAIN, just because someone is in hospital, and they happen to be "positive" vaxed or not, doesnt follow that they are in there because of COVID. They may have a broken leg. Thats what I was driving at. Those charts are practically useless.
As far as the point quote: "chances of being hospitalized with covid are reduced by 77.4% if you have 2 doses of a vaccine, and with 2 doses your chances of winding up in the ICU are reduced by 90%."
Okay, so then why is there more vaxxed in the hospitals overall (and ICU) than unvaxxed? 580 non, 1633 vaxxed.
The good news about this where you said:
"This means that the more people who are vaccinated the fewer will wind up in the hospital or ICU, and that will reduce the strain on the healthcare system. Then maybe they can resume doing non-emergency surgeries again."
...That there is no "strain" on Ont Health care over corona. Ontario has 48,700 beds. 1.19% of the bed capcity in hospital are non jabbed, and 3.35% of the bed capacity are jabbed. 4.5% capacity of beds in hospital are testing positive, irrespective of jab.
Leaving about 46,000 beds left. If that isn't plenty then I don't know what is. Routine surgeries could start now. If they aren't, then that's on them, not us.