Yeah I don't see how it's in our national interest to go to war with Russia over a strip of Ukrainian territory.
This isn't part of a broader push by Putin to try to take over the world, or even Ukraine for that matter. He's doing this because the western powers have essentially laid claim to Ukraine (via prospective EU and NATO membership).
Or put more simply, Russia doesn't want the Ukraine turning fully blue on this map. Russia views this as an encroachment, so they're putting up some obstacles to stop it.
The way NATO works is that if any member country is attacked, all the other members have to jump in and defend them. That's the essence of NATO. What Putin is doing here is creating a scenario where NATO can't allow Ukraine to become a member without simultaneously committing NATO to guaranteed war with Russia. And it appears to be working.
A lot of people don't get that the West's push eastward didn't end with the cold war. It's still going on to this day. What we're seeing in east Ukraine right now is the pushback.
We all need to stop and ask our governments why we're still pushing east and whether it's worth it? Are we trying to topple Russia or something? What's going on here and why?
A lot of people don't get that the West's push eastward didn't end with the cold war.
It didn't end with the end of the cold war because former Soviet countries like Poland and the Baltic States absolutely hate Russia. They don't trust Russia a single ounce, so of course they joined NATO as soon as they could.
I guess if it were 1939, you would question the UK and France policy to protect Poland. Not in their national interest, right?
Suprisingly, all your arguments repeat the Russia Today narrative. Why? Western countries do not lay any claim to Ukraine, Ukraine itself is begging to be accepted to NATO to stop Russian aggression. Ukraine was asking to be accepted since 1991, and never got a positive response. Only now, when Russian army is so close, NATO is kinda looking into this, but not seriously enough. The story that NATO is trying to occupy Ukraine, or West is pushing eastward is nonsense. Eastern European countries don't want to have anything in common with Russia, they wanted to run away from it from day 1, and EU and NATO reluctantly accepted some of them with lots of conditions and very little protection.
Listen, Russia is a thug walking among polite Western countries. It constantly tries to cross the lines and see what it can get away with. It got away with the war in Georgia. It almost got away with annexing Crimea. As soon as it sees a firm response, it backs away, like a thug that got kicked into the knee. But if the West has no balls, Russia will keep squeezing it the way it wants. Putin is a crook, and his friends are crooks, and trust me you don't want to support these people. They are the worst scum on Earth. Fuck Russia, and fuck Putin in particular.
You realize that Ukraine sold the Russians a multi-decade lease and invited their navy and military in years and years ago, such that when the Russians took Crimea, they did so with troops already in the country ...?
As far as I'm concerned, this is civil strife and not worth wasting one jot of Canadian blood over. If, like in the Spanish Civil War, Canadians with vested interests want to go fight, by all means. (We had Canadians go fight on both sides of that conflict). Canada as a nation, notwithstanding its inane pledges and treaties with the failed Ukrainian state, shouldn't be provoking Russia.
Yes, Russia is a thuggish state. George Will rightly or wrongly called it a nationalist socialist nation minus the identitarianism of Germany's version. It's not great. But what we're managing to do, or rather what we've managed to do, with our bumble-fuck geopolitics, is push Russia into the arms of Iran and Communist China, at a time when the battle lines for the Sino-American War are being drawn.
The CCP fucked over the CCCP and helped the West undermine the Soviet Union. Putin, who has a historical awareness, knows the Chinese can't be trusted. And yet, owing to years of Russophobic hysteria and this effort to put NATO missile systems on Russia's eastern flank (on it's very border), we're making sure that the FSB Old Guard makes a concrete handshake with the Xiist new guard.
And yet, owing to years of Russophobic hysteria and this effort to put NATO missile systems on Russia's eastern flank (on it's very border), we're making sure that the FSB Old Guard makes a concrete handshake with the Xiist new guard.
NATO missiles systems are already on the eastern flank of Russia, in the Baltic States and Poland which share a border with Russia.
What's next for Putin? Invade and annex the Ukraine and then complain that it is suddenly bordering even more NATO states like the Slovakia and Hungary? The idiot even demanded today that NATO troops should be withdrawn from Romania and Bulgaria. Bulgaria is a member of NATO. All soldiers are NATO troops there.
Again. Biden should have never removed the sanctions on the Nordstream pipeline and should have continued supplying heavy weapons to Ukraine like Trump did.
notwithstanding its inane pledges and treaties with the failed Ukrainian state, shouldn't be provoking Russia.
Canada isn't alone. Canada is part of NATO. We aren't provoking them. If Canadian blood is spilled it will be because of Russian aggression.
No one is asking for Canadian troops to spill their blood on Ukrainian soil. Ukrainian army is now quite skilled and competent, but badly lacks good weapons. Ukrainian tanks are former Soviet tanks made in 60's.
At the same time Russia is a military state, they have a 4th largest defense budget in the world, its own tanks, airplanes, missiles, etc. Ukraine produces very little arms and weapons, and historically it was buying it all from Russia, that's why now it is asking Western states to
sell it as much equipment as they can.
provide training if possible.
tell Russia it all will have consequences.
What's so wrong with it?
It is incorrect to assume it's West fault that Russia is so antagonistic. West never been Russophobic. US and Europe supported Russia during the difficult 90's years, Clintons' tried to do a "reset", the diplomats closed their eyes on so many wrong deeds by Russia, etc.
However, it is Russian official policy to do everything possible to piss off the West. It's how Putin keeps his ratings high, because it is a thug mentality. Notice how Russia never negotiates to get a fair deal, it negotiates to piss off the other party, and then walks away from the talks. Just like Hamas or Hezbollah. "They didn't accept our peaceful conditions!"
PS. Also, about that "language" map in the previous post, it is as relevant as saying that half of Switzerland is speaking German, so why shouldn't Germany just annex it?
Yeah I don't see how it's in our national interest to go to war with Russia over a strip of Ukrainian territory.
This isn't part of a broader push by Putin to try to take over the world, or even Ukraine for that matter. He's doing this because the western powers have essentially laid claim to Ukraine (via prospective EU and NATO membership).
Or put more simply, Russia doesn't want the Ukraine turning fully blue on this map. Russia views this as an encroachment, so they're putting up some obstacles to stop it.
The way NATO works is that if any member country is attacked, all the other members have to jump in and defend them. That's the essence of NATO. What Putin is doing here is creating a scenario where NATO can't allow Ukraine to become a member without simultaneously committing NATO to guaranteed war with Russia. And it appears to be working.
A lot of people don't get that the West's push eastward didn't end with the cold war. It's still going on to this day. What we're seeing in east Ukraine right now is the pushback.
We all need to stop and ask our governments why we're still pushing east and whether it's worth it? Are we trying to topple Russia or something? What's going on here and why?
100%. Interesting talk on it: https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4
It didn't end with the end of the cold war because former Soviet countries like Poland and the Baltic States absolutely hate Russia. They don't trust Russia a single ounce, so of course they joined NATO as soon as they could.
I guess if it were 1939, you would question the UK and France policy to protect Poland. Not in their national interest, right?
Suprisingly, all your arguments repeat the Russia Today narrative. Why? Western countries do not lay any claim to Ukraine, Ukraine itself is begging to be accepted to NATO to stop Russian aggression. Ukraine was asking to be accepted since 1991, and never got a positive response. Only now, when Russian army is so close, NATO is kinda looking into this, but not seriously enough. The story that NATO is trying to occupy Ukraine, or West is pushing eastward is nonsense. Eastern European countries don't want to have anything in common with Russia, they wanted to run away from it from day 1, and EU and NATO reluctantly accepted some of them with lots of conditions and very little protection.
Listen, Russia is a thug walking among polite Western countries. It constantly tries to cross the lines and see what it can get away with. It got away with the war in Georgia. It almost got away with annexing Crimea. As soon as it sees a firm response, it backs away, like a thug that got kicked into the knee. But if the West has no balls, Russia will keep squeezing it the way it wants. Putin is a crook, and his friends are crooks, and trust me you don't want to support these people. They are the worst scum on Earth. Fuck Russia, and fuck Putin in particular.
"Russian army so close"
You realize that Ukraine sold the Russians a multi-decade lease and invited their navy and military in years and years ago, such that when the Russians took Crimea, they did so with troops already in the country ...?
As far as I'm concerned, this is civil strife and not worth wasting one jot of Canadian blood over. If, like in the Spanish Civil War, Canadians with vested interests want to go fight, by all means. (We had Canadians go fight on both sides of that conflict). Canada as a nation, notwithstanding its inane pledges and treaties with the failed Ukrainian state, shouldn't be provoking Russia.
Yes, Russia is a thuggish state. George Will rightly or wrongly called it a nationalist socialist nation minus the identitarianism of Germany's version. It's not great. But what we're managing to do, or rather what we've managed to do, with our bumble-fuck geopolitics, is push Russia into the arms of Iran and Communist China, at a time when the battle lines for the Sino-American War are being drawn.
The CCP fucked over the CCCP and helped the West undermine the Soviet Union. Putin, who has a historical awareness, knows the Chinese can't be trusted. And yet, owing to years of Russophobic hysteria and this effort to put NATO missile systems on Russia's eastern flank (on it's very border), we're making sure that the FSB Old Guard makes a concrete handshake with the Xiist new guard.
NATO missiles systems are already on the eastern flank of Russia, in the Baltic States and Poland which share a border with Russia.
What's next for Putin? Invade and annex the Ukraine and then complain that it is suddenly bordering even more NATO states like the Slovakia and Hungary? The idiot even demanded today that NATO troops should be withdrawn from Romania and Bulgaria. Bulgaria is a member of NATO. All soldiers are NATO troops there.
Again. Biden should have never removed the sanctions on the Nordstream pipeline and should have continued supplying heavy weapons to Ukraine like Trump did.
Canada isn't alone. Canada is part of NATO. We aren't provoking them. If Canadian blood is spilled it will be because of Russian aggression.
No one is asking for Canadian troops to spill their blood on Ukrainian soil. Ukrainian army is now quite skilled and competent, but badly lacks good weapons. Ukrainian tanks are former Soviet tanks made in 60's.
At the same time Russia is a military state, they have a 4th largest defense budget in the world, its own tanks, airplanes, missiles, etc. Ukraine produces very little arms and weapons, and historically it was buying it all from Russia, that's why now it is asking Western states to
What's so wrong with it?
It is incorrect to assume it's West fault that Russia is so antagonistic. West never been Russophobic. US and Europe supported Russia during the difficult 90's years, Clintons' tried to do a "reset", the diplomats closed their eyes on so many wrong deeds by Russia, etc.
However, it is Russian official policy to do everything possible to piss off the West. It's how Putin keeps his ratings high, because it is a thug mentality. Notice how Russia never negotiates to get a fair deal, it negotiates to piss off the other party, and then walks away from the talks. Just like Hamas or Hezbollah. "They didn't accept our peaceful conditions!"
PS. Also, about that "language" map in the previous post, it is as relevant as saying that half of Switzerland is speaking German, so why shouldn't Germany just annex it?